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RE: Tower's 1st [no, 3rd] Hard-Reset since clean-reinstall. - kdemeoz - 22nd February 2017

Hi Rocky

Your reply rather surprised me. I have not yet made any further changes today, as i wish to take stock of the journey to this point, what it means, & what's the next logical steps.

I am still struggling to understand your rationale in reversing your until-recent advocacy for me changing from the Nvidia gpu driver to the Nouveau driver. Based on the research i did per my earlier post in this thread https://forums.mauilinux.org/showthread.php?tid=24237&pid=41756#pid41756, there was not a consistent view "out there" one way or the other on Nvidia or Nouveau. Admittedly in the link we both posted, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1530405, there was a little more support expressed for Nvidia in lieu of Nouveau.

However, look at my own documented freeze history in this thread; the failures have been split virtually 1/2 & 1/2... which is why in an earlier post i mentioned to you:
Quote:I do note your suggestion to try my Nvidia driver again [which i assume you are only making specifically in awareness of my kernel upgrade to 4.9.9, otherwise i cannot see the point, given that the explicit reason i previously switched from Nvidia to Nouveau [per advice from leszek, Pliny & you, if i recall] with the various older kernels was the plethora of freezes]. However, given today's new change already made [the intel-microcode installation, as above], i shall hold off on the GPU driver switch-back until/unless there's another freeze [ie, so i can properly judge the effectiveness or not of intel-microcode].

The question of Nvidia vs Nouveau has come up previously in other Maui threads [with posters speaking favourably of Nouveau], but just to limit myself to the current thread:
Quote:https://forums.mauilinux.org/showthread.php?tid=24237&pid=41397#pid41397
leszek
Nouveau drivers are well capable of running 3D games aswell. You don't need proprietary drivers for this.
All in all I think the unexpected behavior shows the flaws of that proprietary driver.

Quote:https://forums.mauilinux.org/showthread.php?tid=24237&pid=41553#pid41553
rocky7x
Hi kdemeoz,
Nouveau has gone a loooong way since Mint 17 & KDE4 days. For an old card like you have, I would maybe even go so far and say it's a better solution than the proprietary driver (maybe not for gaming, but for desktop definitely). My friend has an even older Nvidia card (but not so old that it would fall into legacy driver support) and Maui doesn't even come up with proprietary driver - it says that no OpenGL 2.1 support was found. But with Nouveau ALL works correctly. So I have only good experience with Nouveau. Of course, you cannot try it with the newest Nvidia cards, but with Kepler and older ones I would say that the experience is very good (especially if gaming is not required).

A distinct operational benefit i have experienced since i changed to the Nouveau driver from Nvidia driver, per my post https://forums.mauilinux.org/showthread.php?tid=24234&pid=41375#pid41375, is that:
Quote:now, after each Suspend - Resume, no longer are Cairo-Dock & my desktop icons garbled; they stay good.

...so on balance, & contrary to my earlier stubbornness of prior months, my preference at the moment is probably to retain Nouveau driver, not return to Nvidia driver (IF Nouveau is technically compatible with using the Intel gpu].

Please Rocky, i hope my taking these reflections does not seem like i am ungratefully biting the hand that has been generously feeding me. It's just that to this point [even though i now readily acknowledge it is NOT the fault of Maui per se, but rather maybe what lies below Maui [ie, 16.04], i have endured a great amount of stress & hassle with all the freezes [& occasional Tower unavailability whilst pursuing remedies], so i don't wish to take actions lightly now. 

To the question of whether or not the current, active, GPU is now Nvidia or Intel, this latest pic would seem to indicate Intel (i know that when Nvidia is activated, in contrast the LHS column has very many more entries. In previous years, on my Lappy [reminder, this thread is for Tower not Lappy] when it still ran Mint 17.x KDE4, it suffered continual bad graphics failures at Resume from Suspend, which i eventually cured by using nvidia-prime to change to the Intel gpu... & as best i recall now, it then looked pretty similar to this latest appearance of the applet in Tower]:
   

So, if Tower is now using Intel gpu, do i still have a choice of Nvidia or Nouveau driver, or must it be only Nvidia, or must it be only Nouveau? My confusion on this point is another reason, additional to the historical reasons listed above, for my decision not to make further major changes today til i understand. 

Finally, even though you see i am still weighing up the gpu driver i wish to use, is it safe for me to proceed now with your other recommendation of running the 16.04.2 HWE package & installing the 4.8 kernel... or is it safer not to, til the current statuses of active gpu, & driver, are resolved?

Thank you.

RE: Tower's 1st [no, 3rd] Hard-Reset since clean-reinstall. - kdemeoz - 22nd February 2017

BTW, i re-ran this command just now, for status confirmation:

Code:
Z97-HD3:/$ sudo prime-select intel
[sudo] password for kdemeoz:
Info: the current GL alternatives in use are: ['nvidia-378-prime', 'nvidia-378-prime']
Info: the current EGL alternatives in use are: ['nvidia-378-prime', 'nvidia-378-prime']
Info: the intel profile is already in use


RE: Tower's 1st [no, 3rd] Hard-Reset since clean-reinstall. - rocky7x - 22nd February 2017

Hi kdemeoz,

Well, you cannot have both Nouveau and Nvidia driver (your current situation). The reason why I said to reinstall the Nvidia driver is that it can handle the switching of the GPUs much better than Nouveau. But since your system still uses Nouveau, it doesn't matter what prime-select states. So what I would do is:
1. blacklist nouveau as stated before
2. prime-select intel
3. see how it works, if it works
4. if not take out the Nvidia card from the tower and use only intel card

Since we have pretty much confirmed that:
1. changing the kernel has not helped, so better return to the standard one than have upstream which can have other issues
2. nor changing the driver for nvidia card has not helped
3. not plugging out multiple keyboards and mice has not helped
4. changing various kernel parameters has not helped

I'm trying to go further, so we see how the tower works with the intel GPU. Triaging the root cause of crashes such as yours is sometimes very tedious, but what we need to step by step and if the guys at forum stated that 16.04 is impacted by similar crashes when in combination with Nvidia card, we have to consider that possibility

RE: Tower's 1st [no, 3rd] Hard-Reset since clean-reinstall. - kdemeoz - 23rd February 2017

Hi rocky

Thanks. Yes i see your point.

I read your reply last night, but chose to mull it over for a while, rather than ploughing ahead with it then & there. Coincidentally, Update Manager has, for the past day or two, been offering me another kernel update [from 4.4.0-63 to 4.4.0-64], & so today, whilst still mulling, i decided to let it update [now that 4.9.9 is gone, & 4.8.x HWE no longer seems recommended to my scenario]. I had not intended at the time to commit to any decision either way re Intel vs Nvidia gpus, & Nouveau vs Nvidia drivers... was going to still mull those issues over after the routine kernel update.

Except, the update proved not to be routine at all. Of course i rebooted once the new kernel was installed, but... had the unexpected "pleasure" of another black screen after the second Maui splash-screen, instead of the login screen. I believe/suspect this was likely due to the graphics state having been "neither Arthur nor Martha", per your observation from my last pics that it was simultaneously indicating that both Nouveau AND Nvidia drivers were set.

Given this [black screen] predicament, & though i'd not previously intended to do it at that point in time, i made an opportunity out of the necessity to rescue my boot yet again. Notwithstanding your well-argued advice, i decided to have one final fling with Nouveau, but with Intel not Nvidia gpu [& not at this stage physically removing the card]. It took a few shuttles back & forth between Plasmashell & TTY, prime-selecting Intel gpu, edits & unedits of grub [nomodeset in/out/in/out], boots & reboots, to finally arrive at this intended status of Intel GPU with Nouveau driver [ie, no longer indicating graphics self-contradiction like before]:
   
   
   
   

So, my plan now is:
1. Retain this combination for as long as i can before Tower next freezes.
2. If it does freeze, abandon my fantasy & instead immediately proceed with your latest recommendations.
3. If it does not freeze, then this simply becomes my new default configuration.

I suppose that "watch this space" is an appropriate closing remark [albeit, i sincerely hope there'll be no further need for me to add to this long thread...???].

RE: Tower's 1st [no, 3rd] Hard-Reset since clean-reinstall. - rocky7x - 23rd February 2017

Hi,

Well, you have to understand a few facts, which I think you still haven't completely comprehended:
1. when you get a new kernel in the 4.4 branch, it has nothing but security updates, so from "can it make my hw work better" perspective it does nothing
2. therefore hoping on the HWE train is a much better option, since it can indeed make your hardware work better and solve issues you have, thus the HWE kernel 4.8 is from a desktop usage perspective much better
3. having Nvidia driver installed and using Nouveau is not really a stable situation, more or less a ticking bomb, because you are mixing drivers - e.g. using prime-select and then using Nouveau, well I'm surprised that it even works

So, if you leave it as it is and it works for an indefinite time, OK, I guess using the don't-fiddle-with-it-if-it-works approach is acceptable. But if it starts crashing again, you should definitely examine the options described previously.

RE: Tower's 1st [no, 3rd] Hard-Reset since clean-reinstall. - kdemeoz - 23rd February 2017

(23rd February 2017, 11:55)rocky7x Wrote: Hi,

Well, you have to understand a few facts, which I think you still haven't completely comprehended:
1. when you get a new kernel in the 4.4 branch, it has nothing but security updates, so from "can it make my hw work better" perspective it does nothing
2. therefore hoping on the HWE train is a much better option, since it can indeed make your hardware work better and solve issues you have, thus the HWE kernel 4.8 is from a desktop usage perspective much better
3. having Nvidia driver installed and using Nouveau is not really a stable situation, more or less a ticking bomb, because you are mixing drivers - e.g. using prime-select and then using Nouveau, well I'm surprised that it even works

So, if you leave it as it is and it works for an indefinite time, OK, I guess using the don't-fiddle-with-it-if-it-works approach is acceptable. But if it starts crashing again, you should definitely examine the options described previously.

Re the kernel, there definitely has been a misunderstanding between us. The reason i wrote in my last post:
Quote:now that 4.9.9 is gone, & 4.8.x HWE no longer seems recommended to my scenario

...was explicitly because i interpreted your:
Quote:Since we have pretty much confirmed that:

1. changing the kernel has not helped, so better return to the standard one than have upstream which can have other issues

...as meaning that you no longer thought i should climb aboard the HWE train; i thought by "standard" you meant 4.4.x. Pls recall that in my recent posts i had been saying that i did want to do that, but i thought your 2nd-last post indicated you'd changed your mind. If in fact as it now seems, you still advocate 4.8 HWE, i am all for it !! So tomorrow, that's what i shall do:
Code:
sudo apt-get install --install-recommends xserver-xorg-hwe-16.04


Re your:
Quote:3. having Nvidia driver installed and using Nouveau is not really a stable situation, more or less a ticking bomb
...you are clearly vastly more experienced & knowledgeable about all this stuff than i am, so pls read the following as an(other) indicator merely of my naive confusion, not impertinent contradiction... your statement puzzles me, given that the Maui Settings' Driver Manager clearly provides users the choice [pic #2 in my previous post] of Nvidia drivers or Nouveau, & i picked Nouveau this time. If indeed this "time-bomb" does detonate on me, i accept it's entirely my fault & i shan't waste anyone's time by further whinging about it here.


Re your:
Quote:But if it starts crashing again, you should definitely examine the options described previously

...I do not disagree one iota; my #2 in my previous post indicated this. If this is indeed what transpires, i will only come back to this thread with more questions if when i try to deploy your recommendations of blacklisting Nouveau etc i find something that i can't understand.

Many thanks once more.

RE: Tower's 1st [no, 3rd] Hard-Reset since clean-reinstall. - kdemeoz - 24th February 2017

Tower is now upgraded to "xserver-xorg-hwe-16.04".

Code:
Z97-HD3:~$ inxi -Fxz
System:    Host: Z97-HD3 Kernel: 4.8.0-39-generic x86_64 (64 bit gcc: 5.4.0) Desktop: KDE Plasma 5.8.4 (Qt 5.7.0)
          Distro: Ubuntu 2.1 xenial
Machine:   Mobo: Gigabyte model: Z97-HD3 v: x.x Bios: American Megatrends v: F7 date: 12/08/2014
CPU:       Quad core Intel Core i7-4790 (-HT-MCP-) cache: 8192 KB
          flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 ssse3 vmx) bmips: 28800
          clock speeds: max: 4000 MHz 1: 3970 MHz 2: 3942 MHz 3: 3994 MHz 4: 3957 MHz 5: 3974 MHz 6: 4000 MHz
          7: 3976 MHz 8: 3990 MHz
Graphics:  Card-1: Intel Xeon E3-1200 v3/4th Gen Core Processor Integrated Graphics Controller bus-ID: 00:02.0
          Card-2: NVIDIA GF119 [GeForce GT 610] bus-ID: 01:00.0
          Display Server: X.Org 1.18.4 drivers: nvidia (unloaded: fbdev,vesa,nouveau)
          Resolution: 1920x1080@60.00hz
          GLX Renderer: GeForce GT 610/PCIe/SSE2 GLX Version: 4.5.0 NVIDIA 378.13 Direct Rendering: Yes


Prior to doing this upgrade today:
A. Config @ beginning [as of yesterday's work]: Intel gpu & Nouveau driver.
B. Today's discovery: 2 out of 2 attempts to Suspend-Resume failed. Post-Resume, x-session was frozen. I presume this indicates incompatibility of Intel gpu with Nouveau driver, as Rocky intimated.

So i did:
1. TTY attempt "sudo prime-select nvidia" failed; given neither Nvidia gpu nor driver was active, this command was unrecognised.
2. Rebooted & logged in, then in Maui Settings - Driver Manager, changed back from Nouveau to latest Nvidia driver
4. Rebooted
5. Now active gpu is again Nvidia, with Nvidia driver loaded too.

Code:
Z97-HD3:~$ sudo prime-select nvidia
[sudo] password for kdemeoz:
Info: the current GL alternatives in use are: ['nvidia-378', 'nvidia-378']
Info: the current EGL alternatives in use are: ['nvidia-378', 'nvidia-378']
Info: the nvidia profile is already in use
Z97-HD3:~$

The Nouveau-blacklisting etc for now is deliberately held-over til [/if there is] the next freeze.

Thanks Rocky.

RE: Tower's 1st [no, 3rd] Hard-Reset since clean-reinstall. - rocky7x - 24th February 2017

And now that you've got Nvidia driver, what does the prime-select intel do after reboot? Does it switch to using intel card?

RE: Tower's 1st [no, 3rd] Hard-Reset since clean-reinstall. - kdemeoz - 24th February 2017

(24th February 2017, 10:44)rocky7x Wrote: And now that you've got Nvidia driver, what does the prime-select intel do after reboot? Does it switch to using intel card?

Ha, you know, i was just itching to try & discover the answer to that question myself, too... but i chickened-out due to uncertainty of me possibly breaking my Tower again. If you think it'll be safe, in your next reply, then i shall happily give it a go.

However, if i do try it, is this just an interesting temporary experiment after which i should re-run:
Code:
sudo prime-select nvidia

...or is this the preferred "permanent" setting? My assumption of your response is "Yes, stay with Intel", due to your solid remark in an earlier post that:
Quote:you have Intel Haswell i7-4790, which has an Intel integrated HD 4600 GPU, which is more powerful than the Nvidia GT 610


RE: Tower's 1st [no, 3rd] Hard-Reset since clean-reinstall. - rocky7x - 24th February 2017

I think you should try it. The worst thing that can happen is that you will get a black screen after the first blue Maui screen. Then just switch to a terminal and switch back to nvidia. But I think it's worth a try since if it works, you might solve the crashes.